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Blogs > khuXBFXM8u > The Down and Dirty

Justice  

khuXBFXM8u 62M
6260 posts
6/9/2014 6:50 am
Justice
Is there such a thing?



The other day I watched the end of a movie I had seem many years ago; “The Hurricane”. It’s a story about Rubin “Hurricane” Carter. If you don’t know the story, here it is… In 1966 Rubin Carter (a middleweight boxer) and his friend John Artis are tried and convicted of a triple-homicide committed in a bar in Paterson, New Jersey. Carter was tried twice once in 1967, the (original conviction), and again in 1976. The 1976 trial came about because the two star witnesses for the prosecution both recanted their identification of Carter and Artis as the trigger men. The 1976 conviction was overturned early in 1985 but state prosecutors chose not to try the case a third time, and Mr. Carter was destine to spend his life behind bars.

In 1985 Carter’s attorney pleaded for a writ of habeas corpus in federal court. They brought to light a number of inconsistencies in the prosecution’s case, as well as the fact that the prosecution withheld evidence that would have exonerated Mr. Carter. The United States District Court for the District of New Jersey granted the writ, noting that the prosecution had been “predicated upon an appeal to racism rather than reason, and concealment rather than disclosure”. The federal court set aside the convictions, and freed Carter without bail in November 1985. So after 20 years in prison Carter is freed and justice is served. But is it?

I have always had a problem with this… the general notion of “Justice being served”, especially where the legal system is involved. Justice is defined as “the quality of being just: righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness; the administering of deserved punishment or reward; to act or treat justly or fairly. If in the end the legal system finally got it right, 2 men still spent 20 years in prison for a crime they didn’t commit, so the majority of the population could keep their delusion of safety and moral rightness. Not to mention that careers of police officials and prosecutors were advanced on the backs of these men. Where is the justice for Carter and Artis, they still lost 20 years of their life behind bars? Where is the justice for the police officials and prosecutors who seemingly circumvented the laws they are duty bound to up hold, to get the conviction they wanted? The safety of the community was not served either, since the 2 real murderers were never apprehended, and are still free in the community. And the biggest thing that always sticks in my craw… where is the justice for the 3 victims of the crime? They are still dead; no justice for them.

What do you think? Is there such a thing as justice?
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lindoboy100 61M  
23969 posts
6/9/2014 7:01 am

 Excellent post McHugh!!

I reckon there has to be justice, otherwise our world would basically fail. There is however no doubt whatsoever that whichever system of justice we live within, it is open to abuse and manipulation, usually in favour of the establishment which operates the system. So I guess the answer to your question has to be no, there is no such thing as justice in the sense you define.

Cases such as this make one of the main reasons I do not at all favour capital punishment. In another state those two gentlement would have been executed.


khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 7:41 am
    Quoting lindoboy100:
    Excellent post McHugh!!

    I reckon there has to be justice, otherwise our world would basically fail. There is however no doubt whatsoever that whichever system of justice we live within, it is open to abuse and manipulation, usually in favour of the establishment which operates the system. So I guess the answer to your question has to be no, there is no such thing as justice in the sense you define.

    Cases such as this make one of the main reasons I do not at all favour capital punishment. In another state those two gentlement would have been executed.
Thank you Mclindo. spunkycumfun (aka TC), just posted a few days ago about capital punishment as it is practiced under sharia law. Interesting practice to have the family of victim decide whether the court imposed sentence is carried out or stayed.

I too am not in favor of capital punishment.
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khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 7:43 am
    Quoting jr94382:
    great movie but im not sure on the subject
Yes, I did enjoy the movie the first time I saw it, even though I knew the outcome.
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spunkycumfun 63M/69F
41171 posts
6/9/2014 9:07 am

 I was made aware of this case after Bob Dylans' Hurricane song.
Perfect justice is difficult to achieve but getting better justice should not be so so difficult.
Everyone needs access to effective legal representation, the courts need to reflect wider society more, and miscarriages of injustice need to be remedied much more quickly.


sweet_VM 65F
81699 posts
6/9/2014 9:37 am

 I have not seen the movie yet but will now be adding it to my list to watch. I like that kind of movie. hugs V
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pal334 69M  
45821 posts
6/9/2014 9:53 am
The scary part is , it is probably the fairest system around. The unfortunate part is there have been and are horrendous miscarriages of Justice. What is the answer? I really don't know, just hope it improves some how
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sexysixties2 106F
Ask me for a photo
39750 posts
6/9/2014 10:09 am

 It's a sad fact of life that whilst we must strive to have real justice in a civilised world it is, in practical terms, unattainable....The police do their job to the best of their ability with the tools available at the time....but they are human. Lawyers are obliged to represent their client to the best of their ability too whether they be lawyers for the defence of an ordinary citizen or representing the Office of the Public Prosecutor....their livelihoods depend on doing their job well.

Juries and Judges...or the sentencing officials....despite their years of experience are only human too. It is inevitable that mistakes are made at times. What should happen is that sufficient compensation and aid is given swiftly to the wronged as soon as possible and paid for from the public purse.
"Age does not protect you from love, but love, to some extent, protects you from age."

~~Anais Nin~~


openagenda 108M
6275 posts
6/9/2014 12:48 pm

 It took Canadian lawyers who volunteered to defend and get an American boxer wrongly convicted exonerated. That really "tells" the story.

Another example of the Cdn Underground Railway of modern times.

btw He moved to and now lives in the GTA.


khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 4:21 pm
    Quoting  :
I just wish we would stop referring to the legal system as the "justice system", because mankind doesn't have to wisdom to administer justice as we define the word.
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khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 4:27 pm
    Quoting spunkycumfun:
    I was made aware of this case after Bob Dylans' Hurricane song.
    Perfect justice is difficult to achieve but getting better justice should not be so so difficult.
    Everyone needs access to effective legal representation, the courts need to reflect wider society more, and miscarriages of injustice need to be remedied much more quickly.
TC I would go further... Justice is impossible to achieve. To achieve it we would have to be all knowing and all powerful.

I remember one Star Trek episode, were the punishment for taking a life was you were implanted with the memory of the last minutes of the life you took, and forced to re-live it over and over again, with the full emotion of the victim, until you die. A closer approximating of the punishment fitting the crime.
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khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 4:29 pm
    Quoting sweet_VM:
    I have not seen the movie yet but will now be adding it to my list to watch. I like that kind of movie. hugs V
Good movie. He was ultimately save by some Canadian's from Toronto. Robin Carter move to Toronto after his release.
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khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 4:34 pm
    Quoting pal334:
    The scary part is , it is probably the fairest system around. The unfortunate part is there have been and are horrendous miscarriages of Justice. What is the answer? I really don't know, just hope it improves some how
The may be true PAL, but the post wasn't intend to be a criticism of an imperfect legal system; I was trying to discuss our misuse of the term 'Justice" as it is defined.
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khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 4:39 pm
    Quoting sexysixties2:
    It's a sad fact of life that whilst we must strive to have real justice in a civilised world it is, in practical terms, unattainable....The police do their job to the best of their ability with the tools available at the time....but they are human. Lawyers are obliged to represent their client to the best of their ability too whether they be lawyers for the defence of an ordinary citizen or representing the Office of the Public Prosecutor....their livelihoods depend on doing their job well.

    Juries and Judges...or the sentencing officials....despite their years of experience are only human too. It is inevitable that mistakes are made at times. What should happen is that sufficient compensation and aid is given swiftly to the wronged as soon as possible and paid for from the public purse.
Sexy, true justice it is unattainable in almost every situations. What irks me is tying a very imperfect system to notion of justice. The legal system should just be referred to as such.
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khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 4:44 pm
    Quoting openagenda:
    It took Canadian lawyers who volunteered to defend and get an American boxer wrongly convicted exonerated. That really "tells" the story.

    Another example of the Cdn Underground Railway of modern times.

    btw He moved to and now lives in the GTA.
Some Canadians did play an instrumental role, and I knew Rubin Carter resided in Toronto after his release. Unfortunately he passed away on April 20, of this year at age 76, which is probably the reason the movie was aired.
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khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 4:45 pm

 It seems we have been stagnant over the past few decades.
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hotsandy5 49F
10514 posts
6/9/2014 4:57 pm

 Good question - Is there justice?
It's lamentable ... unfortunately the notion of justice is often ignored. We live in a society where injustice replaces justice.
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A única alegria isenta de amargura é a de bem proceder.


khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 5:33 pm
    Quoting hotsandy5:
    Good question - Is there justice?
    It's lamentable ... unfortunately the notion of justice is often ignored. We live in a society where injustice replaces justice.
    Hugs!
That may be true, to a degree... in that guilt or innocence is more influenced by social status rather than truth.
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openagenda 108M
6275 posts
6/9/2014 6:33 pm
    Quoting khuXBFXM8u:
    Some Canadians did play an instrumental role, and I knew Rubin Carter resided in Toronto after his release. Unfortunately he passed away on April 20, of this year at age 76, which is probably the reason the movie was aired.
The movie "The Hurricane" was released in 1999 and has been on tv for much of the last 10 years. It was one of the better by Norman Jewison.

The story is really about how Carter's Canadian foster family fought for his freedom and how the Canadian lawyer team won it.


khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 7:35 pm
    Quoting openagenda:
    The movie "The Hurricane" was released in 1999 and has been on tv for much of the last 10 years. It was one of the better by Norman Jewison.

    The story is really about how Carter's Canadian foster family fought for his freedom and how the Canadian lawyer team won it.
Yes certainly. But according to the movie, their involvement was in part as a result of their U.S. foster child.
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khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/9/2014 7:39 pm
    Quoting  :
In a loss of something monetary then yes, you can approach justice since the damage can potentially be undone. But in just about every other situation no amount of punishment will undo the wrongdoing.
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khuXBFXM8u 62M
10296 posts
6/18/2014 7:48 pm
    Quoting kzopair:
    For the second time today I'm commenting on an excellent post by you. I think that there is sometimes justice but more often there is racism. Both are meted out by the "justice system". It certainly seems a misnomer. I have attorneys in the family and they assure me that justice is not the purpose of the justice system- as "defense" is not always the purpose of the Department of Defense. We gotta call 'em something.
    In addition to spotty justice and institutional racism there is also terrible inequality based on economic status. I don't need to explain that. We often hear, in the USA, "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good". And I think, well, OK, but are you gonna tell me when to make that call, or is it all right if I make that decision myself? So, we have institutionalized racism, spotty justice and economic inequality before the law, but I am to refrain from making the perfect the enemy of the good? OK, got it. It means sit down and shut up, and I decline to do that.
I agree we need to come with another word to accurately describe legal systems all around the world other than justice. Justice as a concept is wrapped up with the idea of perfection... since humans don't have perfect wisdom, justice is near impossible to achieve.
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